Emotion vs. Rationality

Posted By STURM on January 16, 2010

John,

In response to your bold-text conclusions above:

I personally think you hit the mark in the entire debate of "God or no God”:

Emotion vs. Rationality

They are exclusive to a great degree, but interconnected by the way in which we perceive our environment and consequently react to it.

In this case our "environment" or subject is belief/disbelief in God.

Can we begin by agreeing that different people simply are more prone to "emotional response" than others, much the same way some are more "analytically cool"?

If we can, couldn't one person's emotional reaction manifest as "faith" by way of lacking further knowledge, while another person's reaction manifests as "analysis" to seek said knowledge before forming opinion?

Side Note: I'm not trying to make a black & white statement, just keeping it simple for comparison; possessing both qualities simultaneously to varying degrees is the norm obviously with most people.

You stated the faithful have a clear context by which to understand "the whole of one’s life, as opposed to just that realm of it 'apprehensible' to the rational mind" but those that lack faith do not?

Really?

How so? Do you feel this way because faith is YOUR tool; the natural way YOUR mind grasps the unknown you seek knowledge of?

Can not analysis be mine?

I feel VERY "clear" in my perspective based on analytical thought; to the point it is a "no-brainer" and I'm dumbfounded seemingly rational people can have "faith" and this is why:

As we know, humans are simultaneously intelligent yet emotional. We seek to understand our environment and experiences. Yet when we do not understand, we naturally may feel fear.

Let’s focus on the "big one" to illustrate my point: Fear of Death!

Here is a mental/emotional exercise:

Pause a minute; close your eyes and relax your mind. Steady and calm your breathing. After about one minute, think hard about how you would feel if you KNEW for a FACT there was no heaven to ascend to... Let that truly sink in. You know in your heart-of-hearts that when you die, you simply cease to exist. You have no soul or spirit that will exit your physical body. Your entire struggle in life lead up to this point... and all you is over; you are simply no-more. You can not go on for ever.... How does this make you feel? Uncomfortable, nervous, fearful? Of course it does! It is a horrible consideration! What an incredible let down after an otherwise stimulating life!

I think along time ago homosapiens sat down on a rock and pondered death and found fear. We relish life and most every waking moment is still spent improving our odds for survival OR our comfort in surviving. Does any healthy person WANT to die? Nope! Will we? Yes!

Couple this with the great question: "Where did all this come from?" and you have created not only wishful belief in an after life, but a creator-being that has made it all...

Many myths, fables, legends and religions have their versions which may or may not have influenced each other, but the universal virtues of them all are: (1) wisdom / knowledge; courage; humanity; justice; temperance; and transcendence. Each of these includes several divisions. For instance humanity includes love, kindness, and social intelligence.

Notice how each of these address the "emotionally analytical" need for comfort or survival? This synthesis of the two extremes working hand in hand to make sense of it all, yet confusing thousands of years of humans in the process!?

For me, once I came to terms with death, I realized we must live a full life to make the most of the time we have. This is my humanity; to make the world better for the generations to follow who will inherit the legacy we leave.

Do not fear death. Live wisely so that on your death bed you have no regret. Be satisfied with what you were, not wishful of what you could transcend into!


(1) Peterson, Christopher, and Martin E. P. Seligman. Character Strengths and Virtues. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.

Rationalism & Religion

Posted By ARCHAEOPTERYX on May 28, 2010

I'm not a religious person, as any who have read my posts on this site or visited my own website can tell, but this site is doing such a great job of presenting all viewpoints, I really enjoy reading and posting here.

Reading Mr. Shore's discussion of rationalism and religion above, reminded me of a fictional story I had read that illustrates Mr. Shore's point perfectly. The story is long, and I certainly don't wish to monopolize this page, but it is so worth sharing, that I simply can't resist. To credit the author, it comes to us from http://www.jhuger.com/phandpr - enjoy!

High in the mountains there was a small, hidden valley. In this valley there was a small village. The village was isolated, so the villagers lacked many modern conveniences and observed many strange customs.

Early one spring a Physician arrived from the lowlands. At first the villagers were wary. The Physician was a woman, and the village Priest had given them very particular ideas about what kinds of work were woman's work. Being a Physician wasn't on his list.

With modern medicine and methods, the Physician was able to help many people not helped by the villagers' simple folk ways. In only a few weeks she was able to convince the villagers to accept her.

One day the Physician was sitting in the village green eating her lunch. She took out a big red apple and started to eat it. Seeing what she was doing, the Priest rushed up to her. He shook his finger at her and said, "That's no way for a lady to eat an apple!"

"And what's wrong with the way I'm eating this apple?" asked the Physician.

"A decent woman would pierce the apple with three iron nails, and leave it sit over night before eating the apple," fumed the Priest.

"Eat an apple with nails in it? That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Why would I want to do that?" asked the Physician.

"You take the nails out before you eat the apple," said the Priest. "And you do it because you are a daughter of Eve. Eve tempted Adam with an apple, thus inflicting original sin on mankind. Christ died for these sins, hung on a cross with three iron nails."

The Physician rolled her eyes "You people with your silly superstitions!"

The Priest stalked off in a huff.

The physician continued eating her apples without first nailing them.
Many women of the village noticed that the Physician ate her apples without nailing them. Since the nails gave the apples a funny taste, many of the village women also stopped nailing their apples.

After a few months, the women who stopped nailing their apples became pale, and complained of having no energy. The Priest declared that this was a punishment from God, because they were no longer nailing their apples. The Physician scoffed at this idea, saying "These women are simply anemic. Your diets here are low in iron. Nailing the apples must have transferred some iron to the apple itself. All your women have to do is start taking an iron supplement, and they'll be fine."

Some of the village women went back to nailing their apples. Others started taking an iron supplement. The women of both groups quickly regained their color and energy.

During the spring and summer, the Physician hiked in the mountains around the village. As autumn came, and the first snows starting falling, the walks became impractical. The only entertainment left in the village was a dance held every Friday night in the town hall. This was fine with the Physician, because she enjoyed the music and lively dancing.

One Friday, not long after the first snows of winter, the Physician arrived at the town hall and found it quiet. The people gathered, but there was no music or dancing, and the people were quiet. "What's going on?" the Physician asked. "Where's the party?"

The Priest answered "It is the feast of Saint Foobar, patron saint of our village. From this day until Easter Sunday we must abstain from music, singing, dancing, and other frivolity; or face the wrath of God."

"More superstitious nonsense, I see," said the Physician. "Come on, let's dance!" The Physician was able to persuade only a few people to defy the tradition and dance. Next Friday, a few more joined in, and one of the musicians played. The Friday after that, all but one member of the band was playing, and the majority of the villagers were dancing.

The Priest interrupted the festivities. "This is sacrilege! You mark my words, you'll regret this. Those of you who still have faith should abandon this den of sin, and join me in the church to pray quietly."

Some of the villagers went to the church with the Priest. Some stayed in the town hall with the Physician. For several weeks the Physician and her people spent Friday nights dancing and the Priest and his people spent Friday night praying.

Then one Friday night, during a particularly raucous stomp-dance, there came a low rumble. The rumbling turned to a roar. The singing and dancing had triggered an enormous avalanche. The town hall was destroyed. Many villagers were trapped in the wreckage.

The Priest and his followers rushed to scene of the disaster. They were able to save all of the villagers, although some were quite badly injured. When they reached the Physician, she glared up at the Priest "You...you !@#!@#!! Why didn't you...tell us we would...cause an avalanche?" she asked the Priest.

"I didn't know you would, I just knew that tradition forbade the dancing and singing at this time of year. I warned you, no one can escape the hand of God," said the Priest.

Just before she passed-out, the Physician scoffed "This wasn't...the hand of God...just a n-n-natural d-d-disaster." She was right, but the town hall was still flattened, and many people were still seriously injured.

Winter turned into spring. The villagers met to decide what to do about the destroyed town hall. After some debate, they decided to rebuild. As they discussed where to get the materials, the Physician spoke:,"My cousin owns a sawmill. He also owes me a favor. We could log the forest behind the church, and use that wood to rebuild the town hall."

"Sacrilege!" screamed the Priest. "Those woods are the birthplace of Saint Foobar himself! Great evil will befall us if we desecrate them.!"

"Rubbish!" retorted the Physician. "You can't seriously believe all this nonsense about sacred woods?"

"Nonsense, is it? Would that be nonsense like the iron in the apples, or nonsense like the avalanche that almost killed you?" asked the Priest.

"Those things had perfectly logical, scientific explanations," replied the Physician.

"Logical, scientific explanations that you failed to think of until after the fact; an oversight that has caused the very problem we are now trying to correct," the Priest reminded her.

The Physician started to object. The suggestion that she pay attention to superstition seemed to go against everything she believed in as a woman of science. Then she thought of the rusty apples. They did work, even if the villagers didn't know why. She thought of the avalanche. It was triggered by their singing and dancing. If she had taken the Priest more seriously, if she had tried to understand the reason behind the superstition, she might have avoided the disaster. She took a deep breath, and spoke. "Priest, perhaps you're right. Perhaps there is a reason why those woods were made sacred. Would you be willing to let me examine your records? If so, I might be able to find the reason."

The Priest started to object. The suggestion that there was a mundane reason for the sacred seemed to go against everything he believed as a man of God. Then he thought of the women who were taking mineral supplements instead of nailing apples. The apples had been adding iron to their diet. Maybe that was the real reason for the tradition, even if no one ever knew it. He thought of the avalanche. If he had been able to give the people more of a reason than "It's the way we've always done it" more of them might have listened to him. He took a deep breath, and spoke. "We'll look through the records together, and we'll see what we can find. If the records don't show us why, maybe we can find the answers ourselves."

The Physician nodded, and added: "And if we can't find a reason, we'll log the mountain... cautiously."

High in the mountains there is a small, hidden valley. In this valley there is small town. Physically isolated, modern communication technology keeps it in touch with the rest of the world. Even so, the town's people still remember traditions passed down through countless generations. When a new idea comes along, they don't dismiss it; but neither do they ignore the hard-won wisdom of their ancestors.

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
in-His-own-image.com

Rationalism & Religion

Posted By ARCHAEOPTERYX on May 28, 2010

I'm not a religious person, as any who have read my posts on this site or visited my own website can tell, but this site is doing such a great job of presenting all viewpoints, I really enjoy reading and posting here.

Reading Mr. Shore's discussion of rationalism and religion above, reminded me of a fictional story I had read that illustrates Mr. Shore's point perfectly. The story is long, and I certainly don't wish to monopolize this page, but it is so worth sharing, that I simply can't resist. To credit the author, it comes to us from http://www.jhuger.com/phandpr - enjoy!

High in the mountains there was a small, hidden valley. In this valley there was a small village. The village was isolated, so the villagers lacked many modern conveniences and observed many strange customs.

Early one spring a Physician arrived from the lowlands. At first the villagers were wary. The Physician was a woman, and the village Priest had given them very particular ideas about what kinds of work were woman's work. Being a Physician wasn't on his list.

With modern medicine and methods, the Physician was able to help many people not helped by the villagers' simple folk ways. In only a few weeks she was able to convince the villagers to accept her.

One day the Physician was sitting in the village green eating her lunch. She took out a big red apple and started to eat it. Seeing what she was doing, the Priest rushed up to her. He shook his finger at her and said, "That's no way for a lady to eat an apple!"

"And what's wrong with the way I'm eating this apple?" asked the Physician.

"A decent woman would pierce the apple with three iron nails, and leave it sit over night before eating the apple," fumed the Priest.

"Eat an apple with nails in it? That doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Why would I want to do that?" asked the Physician.

"You take the nails out before you eat the apple," said the Priest. "And you do it because you are a daughter of Eve. Eve tempted Adam with an apple, thus inflicting original sin on mankind. Christ died for these sins, hung on a cross with three iron nails."

The Physician rolled her eyes "You people with your silly superstitions!"

The Priest stalked off in a huff.

The physician continued eating her apples without first nailing them.
Many women of the village noticed that the Physician ate her apples without nailing them. Since the nails gave the apples a funny taste, many of the village women also stopped nailing their apples.

After a few months, the women who stopped nailing their apples became pale, and complained of having no energy. The Priest declared that this was a punishment from God, because they were no longer nailing their apples. The Physician scoffed at this idea, saying "These women are simply anemic. Your diets here are low in iron. Nailing the apples must have transferred some iron to the apple itself. All your women have to do is start taking an iron supplement, and they'll be fine."

Some of the village women went back to nailing their apples. Others started taking an iron supplement. The women of both groups quickly regained their color and energy.

During the spring and summer, the Physician hiked in the mountains around the village. As autumn came, and the first snows starting falling, the walks became impractical. The only entertainment left in the village was a dance held every Friday night in the town hall. This was fine with the Physician, because she enjoyed the music and lively dancing.

One Friday, not long after the first snows of winter, the Physician arrived at the town hall and found it quiet. The people gathered, but there was no music or dancing, and the people were quiet. "What's going on?" the Physician asked. "Where's the party?"

The Priest answered "It is the feast of Saint Foobar, patron saint of our village. From this day until Easter Sunday we must abstain from music, singing, dancing, and other frivolity; or face the wrath of God."

"More superstitious nonsense, I see," said the Physician. "Come on, let's dance!" The Physician was able to persuade only a few people to defy the tradition and dance. Next Friday, a few more joined in, and one of the musicians played. The Friday after that, all but one member of the band was playing, and the majority of the villagers were dancing.

The Priest interrupted the festivities. "This is sacrilege! You mark my words, you'll regret this. Those of you who still have faith should abandon this den of sin, and join me in the church to pray quietly."

Some of the villagers went to the church with the Priest. Some stayed in the town hall with the Physician. For several weeks the Physician and her people spent Friday nights dancing and the Priest and his people spent Friday night praying.

Then one Friday night, during a particularly raucous stomp-dance, there came a low rumble. The rumbling turned to a roar. The singing and dancing had triggered an enormous avalanche. The town hall was destroyed. Many villagers were trapped in the wreckage.

The Priest and his followers rushed to scene of the disaster. They were able to save all of the villagers, although some were quite badly injured. When they reached the Physician, she glared up at the Priest "You...you !@#!@#!! Why didn't you...tell us we would...cause an avalanche?" she asked the Priest.

"I didn't know you would, I just knew that tradition forbade the dancing and singing at this time of year. I warned you, no one can escape the hand of God," said the Priest.

Just before she passed-out, the Physician scoffed "This wasn't...the hand of God...just a n-n-natural d-d-disaster." She was right, but the town hall was still flattened, and many people were still seriously injured.

Winter turned into spring. The villagers met to decide what to do about the destroyed town hall. After some debate, they decided to rebuild. As they discussed where to get the materials, the Physician spoke:,"My cousin owns a sawmill. He also owes me a favor. We could log the forest behind the church, and use that wood to rebuild the town hall."

"Sacrilege!" screamed the Priest. "Those woods are the birthplace of Saint Foobar himself! Great evil will befall us if we desecrate them.!"

"Rubbish!" retorted the Physician. "You can't seriously believe all this nonsense about sacred woods?"

"Nonsense, is it? Would that be nonsense like the iron in the apples, or nonsense like the avalanche that almost killed you?" asked the Priest.

"Those things had perfectly logical, scientific explanations," replied the Physician.

"Logical, scientific explanations that you failed to think of until after the fact; an oversight that has caused the very problem we are now trying to correct," the Priest reminded her.

The Physician started to object. The suggestion that she pay attention to superstition seemed to go against everything she believed in as a woman of science. Then she thought of the rusty apples. They did work, even if the villagers didn't know why. She thought of the avalanche. It was triggered by their singing and dancing. If she had taken the Priest more seriously, if she had tried to understand the reason behind the superstition, she might have avoided the disaster. She took a deep breath, and spoke. "Priest, perhaps you're right. Perhaps there is a reason why those woods were made sacred. Would you be willing to let me examine your records? If so, I might be able to find the reason."

The Priest started to object. The suggestion that there was a mundane reason for the sacred seemed to go against everything he believed as a man of God. Then he thought of the women who were taking mineral supplements instead of nailing apples. The apples had been adding iron to their diet. Maybe that was the real reason for the tradition, even if no one ever knew it. He thought of the avalanche. If he had been able to give the people more of a reason than "It's the way we've always done it" more of them might have listened to him. He took a deep breath, and spoke. "We'll look through the records together, and we'll see what we can find. If the records don't show us why, maybe we can find the answers ourselves."

The Physician nodded, and added: "And if we can't find a reason, we'll log the mountain... cautiously."

High in the mountains there is a small, hidden valley. In this valley there is small town. Physically isolated, modern communication technology keeps it in touch with the rest of the world. Even so, the town's people still remember traditions passed down through countless generations. When a new idea comes along, they don't dismiss it; but neither do they ignore the hard-won wisdom of their ancestors.

pax vobiscum,
archaeopteryx
in-His-own-image.com